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"Seems to me if there's no Finder you're just running applications on top of a Unix core, so any machine that runs Unix (or whatever) would give the same user "experience"--not good for Apple!"

I didn't say "no" Finder. I said that I want Apple to continue its long-running (yet apparently largely unnoticed) efforts to make it so we don't have to go to the Finder as often. My point is that more and more of the overall system's functionality are showing up in the applications themselves (for example, iPhoto's ability to automatically tap into iTunes' library, without iTunes running, and with the Finder having nothing to do with it), meaning that there are fewer and fewer times where a user has to (key words here "go to the Finder".

"If on the other hand you want to move the "desktop" experience to the peripheral dock, menu, and sidebar space allocations, then you're just changing the desktop metaphor."

No, that's not what I mean at all. I'm not talking about altering the Desktop/Finder experience at all. Not one bit. The Panther Finder is perfect, Finder "alternatives" such as Launchbar are pointless crap, and Apple had better not screw with it.

I spelled out in the article what I mean, about as well as I can. Since I'm talking about something that doesn't exist yet, and since I'm talking about something that I only envision metaphorically myself, I don't know if I can do any better than I did in the article. I know I've said it too many times already, but the essence of what I'm talking about boils down to a sharp reduction in the number of times that the users has to (say it with me now) go to the Finder.

"I personally use the desktop to display my favorite scenery du jour, and as a momentary saving place for documents, etc. before they get put away. I've turned off "show mounted disks and servers on desktop" since Panther allows us to show them in the sidebar."

I've done those same things myself.

"Pretty soon we'll probably be able to dock the finder and other menu bars and turn them off on the desktop, then with the dock hidden the entire display will be my own private playground."

You mentioned the idea of hiding or "turning off" the top menubar last night, and now that I've thought about it, I think it's a really really bad (and even highly damaging) idea. Why? Because that menubar is, without question, how you control an application. Take that away, and you're left with almost no usable interface (as with Windows, which has almost no user interface, which is why it's nearly impossible to be productive on a PC). However, because people coming over from Windows are not initially used to having the menubar across the top, given the choice, they might turn it off (a choice likely highly influenced by their local geek who tried to keep them from buying a Mac and is still desperately trying to get them to change their mind after the fact). IMO, the top menubar needs to stay visible at all times -- no ability to turn it off, no questions asked.

"And when "smartlists" (like iTunes and iPhoto) make their way into the finder sidebar the Macintosh Finder experience will be about as advanced as I can imagine given the current technology."


As I said, I think the Finder (as of Panther) is already perfect. I wouldn't mind seeing your smartlists idea come to fruition, but as I said, I don't want to see them screw with the Finder too much going forward. It's perfect already. It's just not something that I want to spend any more time in than necessary.

Put it this way: when you're in the Finder, you're getting ready to do something. When you're in an application, you're doing something. I like the latter more than the former.

"First off, I also dislike the Launcher, it seems too primitive and lacks the elegance of the Macintosh user interface."

I've thought the Launcher was stupid from the day I saw it. Even in OS 9, desktop aliases (combined with Apple Menu aliases) were far more functional.

"But the end of the Macintosh finder still seems to me to be, well, wrong.
Sure, you can put finder activities within applications, but sooner or later, if the user interface becomes application-centric, and the finder fades into disuse, unless the applications are exclusively Apple product, we will have given away the Apple experience!"

Once again, I never said one word about the "end" of the Finder. I'm talking about fewer times that I have to "go to the Finder". I can't stress strongly enough that you and I are not arguing the same issue here.

"The dock IS an Apple application. Adding the possibility of moving the finder (menu bar) control to the dock merges the 2 finder interface metaphors. Of course it should be optional (you can already optionally turn off the dock), but if the 2 could be merged, who says the dock couldn't be pinned to the top of the desktop (it wouldn't interfere with the menu bar). It could be pinned anywhere--or even float! All the functionality would still be included (I'm sure there would be some cleanup required to keep the dock from becoming too cluttered), and the dock seems so much more flexible than the locked menu bar."

You're afraid that less frequent use of the Finder will diminish the Mac's advantage...and yet you're willing to part with the menubar? The menubar IS the Macintosh. Period. Put it on a submenu in the Dock, and most users will never even find it...let alone think to use it. Doing so will make the Mac every bit as unusable as Windows. And putting the Dock at the top of the screen, it would interfere with almost every application out there, most of whom have their vital controls at or near the top of the application's window(s). The few pixels you'd gain by not having a menubar, you'd more than lose by having to keep every single window on your screen a minimum distance from the top-pinned Dock.

The enhancements to the menubar on OS X (more powerful Apple menu, controls for volume, battery, monitor, account name, iChat status, etc.) are one of the big reasons why there are fewer instances in which I have to "go to the Finder", so thank god for that top menubar. It, not the Finder, defines the Macintosh experience.

"OK--I'll move on from 'the end of the Finder'. I had stuck on it because it was the title of article, which tends to focus the response..."

Okay, okay, you got me -- I intentionally gave the article a title that would bring lots and lots of traffic (and it worked, for that matter).

"And I agree that the menu bar is part of the current Finder experience. The only way I would entertain the thought of merging it into the dock would be with the same kind of elegant interface. I'm not sure how it could be done, but just like the dock/sidebar/folder toolbar paradigms have been merging it seems it should be possible, and regardless if it were pinned to a side of the desktop or floated with translucency or expose type visibility, I was just thinking 'out of the box'."

If I picture your idea correctly, you've got something along the lines of an icon in the Dock that, when clicked on, sprouts a pop-up list that contains all the items that would normally be on the menubar (File, Edit, Go, Window, etc.). The fatal flaw with this, IMO, is that in order to gain access to even the most basic and common of commands, you've got to go to a Dock item, bring up a pop-up list, and go at least one layer deep into a submenu. You really want to do all that work just to get to a feature such as "Paste"? Besides, one of what I think makes the Mac so easy to use, is that the contents of the menubar very visibly morphs as you change apps, displaying the menus for that app. You take that away, and the typical user then has no vsisible feedback that they've changed apps. And even the experienced user will have to click on a Dock item and invoke a list, just to see what menu items are available for the app they're in (unless they've memorized the menu items for every app they've ever used).

"I'm not thinking like Windoze does with the "Start" menu, I'm thinking something completely different..."

You're definitely thinking innovatively, I just happen to think that this particular idea would have little upside and a variety of downside. But then again, it did take me about 24 hours to decide that I didn't like the idea, after having originally thought it sounded pretty cool...

One other thing: as far as transparent omnipresent floating windows or items...every time I've ever encountered them, I've initially fallen in love with the idea, only to eventually decide that it was rather heavily impeding my workflow. Because no matter where you put it in the screen, it's only a matter of time before it's blocking your access to something you need to get to, meaning that you have to stop what you're doing and move the floating item...only to have the same problem happen again later on, with its new location.

For that reason, I much prefer something like the menubar, which is locked into place, and nothing can accidentally get trapped behind it.

- BP

now that you've spelled it out, it seems even more nightmarish than I'd imagined.

I'll say it one more time, and then I'll cede that I have nothing useful left to say on the subject:

The menubar is the Macintosh.

Screw with it, and you've screwed up the Mac. Eliminiate it, and you've eliminated the Mac.